ChinaTalk

Cerca 2020, I was entering college and ChinaTalk became very important to me as a model for intellectual discourse, i.e. one that is nuanced, historically grounded, techno-optimistic, and curious. It lacks a lot of the pretension and credential-waving of most policy podcasts, like related shows from Lawfare. Jordan’s sensibility has always been an interesting mix of a Silicon Valley, liberal arts, and the D.C. policy world. I still think it’s a good podcast worth following. The coverage skewed U.S.-centric for a China podcast, but Jordan seemed self-conscious about that and was regularly putting out in-depth China specific episodes. Unfortunately the value I get from the average episode has massively declined since 2023. I expected ChinaTalk to lean more AI-optimistic, but it’s really been infected primarily by a certain attitude common among AI boosters, who pay a lot of lip service to“first principles” and “building intuition,” but seem to operate from a single faulty core assumption: None one of this is actually that hard if you’re cracked, in the know (have the right Twitter mutuals) and set aside 20 minutes to hash things out with Claude. There is a simlar level of arrogance in interviews with Biden/Obama NatSec types, which is maybe more reasonable, but no less corrosive in its blasé asessment that deploying increasingly advanced killing machines abroad will always be necessary. The influence of theses attitudes is strongest in the “fellas yucking it up on Zoom”-type series (WarTalk, Transistor Radio) but it’s hard to ignore how it’s bled into main episodes too. Jordan typing questions into ChatGPT mid-interview and credulously reading the answers out loud immediately gives any episode the feeling of a midnight dorm-room chat. Of course I’m painting in broad strokes, but this has been my experience as a relatively long-time listener.

Other reviewers are right to complain about the lack of any “China” discussion in recent episodes, and the ear-gougingly unserious/juvenile “bro” attitudes in some episodes, particularly the ones with Dylan of SemiAnalysis and sometimes the Second Breakfast series. Recently, there’s a sort of unabashed US-nationalism that is very disquieting. However, I’d encourage those with genuine intellectual curiosity about China to visit some of the episodes from previous years, and to subscribe the Substack. Jordan himself is a great interviewer, and quite intelligent, well-read, and perceptive despite his hit-or-miss choice of guests. And the real treasure is Lily Ottinger, who mostly appears in the Substack, writing excellent long-form pieces using primary research and fieldwork in China that are exceedingly rare in this post-pandemic era. Keep it up Lily!

Interesting and in-depth discussions. Then there are random obscure songs at the end that usually very good! Gives me something to look forward to

Jordan, a few years back I heard you ask a guest, “how can I grow China Talk?” That day I didn’t think you would last as a podcaster. Today, the quality of people you are able to come on the show is amazing. Your ability to drop leading questions and the shut up is remarkable. Congratulations, I look forward to each of your podcasts. 2nd breakfast is genius.

Update 2 (June 2025): the Transistor Radio/SemiAnalysis guys are torturous to listen to. Incoherent memespeak with very little value. Update: ChinaTalk is now barely about China and much more about AI, US defense policy, and Jordan’s other assorted interests. Podcasts evolve, but the show no longer does what it says on the tin. Worse, Jordan rarely stops to explain the acronyms and tech jargon he’s using, which a China watcher who isn’t an AI expert shouldn’t be expected to know. — Jordan covers China from angles I haven’t found in other podcasts, and his passion and sincerity are contagious. His interests are many and his questions are thoughtful. I appreciate Jordan’s ability to have hard-nosed policy discussions without being a perma-hawk and while retaining some sense of wonder about and kinship with a country that fascinates him. I also appreciate how many episodes feel like organic conversations, with some but not too much preparation. On occasion, however, this leads to a tendency to ramble, and to gaps in the flow of the show. I (reluctantly) took a star off for that as well as for the fact that a lot of episodes lately have touched on China only tangentially, if they have at all. It’s natural for a host to stray once he has a platform, especially when he is as curious and knowledgeable as Jordan. But a show named ChinaTalk should always have China at its core. A show here and there about semiconductors, AI, and US defense policy is welcome enough, and these can be tied back to China without too much trouble. Don’t do it too hastily, though, and don’t do it too often. Other episodes, like the recent one about macroeconomics (how worried should we be about US wage inflation? To what degree should central banks experiment?) with Jason Furman, stray a little too far.

The guests are great and the topics are very timely. However, as a host, Jordan Schneiderman is a trainwreck. If you did a word cloud based on his portion of the dialogue, the words ‘Um’ ‘Like’ and ‘You Know’ would crowd out all other words. He also doesn’t come across as highly prepared, will go on a long soliloquy before asking the guests “do you agree?”, and overall just sounds unprofessional (see Rahm Emmanuel replying to facile questions with “is that really what you want to ask me” or Dmitri Alperovich telling him he is wrongly interpreting Soviet Cold War history). I want to like the show but he makes it very hard.